If I support or speak about my very religion "Hinduism" openly in my own country these days, I could be very easily branded/labeled as "COMMUNAL". I am an Indian first and then practice my religion for my own spiritual growth which is personal. India has been a land where history dates back to centuries where our modern day calendar can't even correctly pre-locate our history and on this very own soil we have seen the sprouting of many religions - Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism. We never nipped any of these religions during their natal stages nor have we opposed other religions - Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism and Judaism. My country has always been the home for diverse set of people who happen to come from diverse religions, caste, creed and races.
Now if you are thinking why I am being so emotional, there is a reason for that. Over last week I have been following various things. The Danish cartoon controversy, M F Hussein’s paintings, Freedom-of-Speech and Celebrations @ Art of Living (AOL). That’s the title for my post "Cartoons, Paintings, Freedom-of-Speech and Religion". Let me first state how each of these subjects are associated to me and then would start ranting on them.
Now if you are thinking why I am being so emotional, there is a reason for that. Over last week I have been following various things. The Danish cartoon controversy, M F Hussein’s paintings, Freedom-of-Speech and Celebrations @ Art of Living (AOL). That’s the title for my post "Cartoons, Paintings, Freedom-of-Speech and Religion". Let me first state how each of these subjects are associated to me and then would start ranting on them.
- Cartoons - they are something I enjoy everyday. I believe cartoons are the best way to express your thoughts on any subject in a creative way.
- Painting - as far painting is concerned I have been painting for years now, even though am not regular, I do indulge in it when-ever I feel like splashing some colors.
- Freedom-of-speech, do I even need to talk about it. It shows for itself, I am able to freely express my thoughts, feelings & opinions in my own way & my government gives me that liberty and I enjoy that with certain responsibility.
- Religion - as I have mentioned before I consider it to be something personal which helps me in my inner journey of life and also give me guidance in my dealing with the day to day nuances of life.
Here comes my rant.
Cartoons: Recently the Danish Jyllands-Posten newspaper published few cartoons which depict Prophet Muhammad in many different ways. One of my friends told me that depicting or even perceiving Prophet Muhammad in any form is not encouraged or allowed in Islam [I need to verify this information.] I don’t understand why the newspaper did so, but it wasn’t the right subject for their cartoons. After that episode there has been wide spread violent protests across the Middle-East, Pakistan, India and South-East Asia.
Cartoons: Recently the Danish Jyllands-Posten newspaper published few cartoons which depict Prophet Muhammad in many different ways. One of my friends told me that depicting or even perceiving Prophet Muhammad in any form is not encouraged or allowed in Islam [I need to verify this information.] I don’t understand why the newspaper did so, but it wasn’t the right subject for their cartoons. After that episode there has been wide spread violent protests across the Middle-East, Pakistan, India and South-East Asia.
The catoon which was published by Jyllands-Posten
If you haven’t been following this controversy over cartoons off late then you could visit this link.
Paintings: The paintings controversy from our renowned painter “M F Hussein”. I read about MF Hussein's paintings being targeted again by some Hindu Organizations in Times of India. I gradually ignored it thinking some of these (Hindu Organizations) are just attacking him for their own cause. Off late I generally tend to ignore such news because most of religious organizations and political parties use Religion for different reasons & never for their true essence. In the span of 4 days, I came across two posts which are related to Hussein’s paintings. One post titled "Psychoanalysis of a painter - MF Hussein" from my blogger friend Vasu and then today I was just browsing few blogs and hit upon this one "TAGGED!: Of Cartoons and Paintings" from Megha. Now after seeing the paintings for the first time I am more pissed off with this FUCK’IN (Megha’s swear word) IDIOT (Vasu’s swear-word for Hussein). You can see these paintings for yourself & then decide what you would feel when something like that is said to express a person’s art. I feel these so called artists @ times use their artistic rights way too far satisfying their personal pleasures.
Following are the pictures of Hussein's Paintings
Naked Sita on the long tail of Hanuman
Woman in sexual union with an elephant
Stark naked Laxmi on the head of Ganesh
Freedom-of-Speech: After Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten published few cartoons & then removed it, several newspapers across Europe & Americas have re-published the same for showing solidarity in the name of Freedom-of-Speech. Now I don’t understand whether there was any motive behind the Western media to hurt the sentiments of Muslims, but, here we have the Indian Media which never gave much weight to this M F Hussein’ paintings altogether. Then I came across few articles last week, where people in China don’t even have the freedom I enjoy.
Here is an extract from Chicago Tribune’s Tear Down China’s ‘Great Firewall’, “China makes a mockery of the Internet's promise of free-flowing information by employing an estimated 30,000 government censors to monitor more than 100 million registered Internet users among its 1.3 billion population”.
Religion: Hinduism is not a religion, but way of living itself. It is one of the oldest religions which has survived many attacks from various beliefs systems and still continues to be the cradle for vast humanity. We Hindus respect & show equality for every other religions and this could be observed from concluded 25th year celebrations of Art of Living, held @ Jakkur Airfield, Bangalore. Where people from various walks of life, sects and religions came together & celebrated the essence of Life! But then there is someone like Perspective who questions it, read her post 'Nodel ideas?' .
Let me summarize all of these, I feel artists have lot many subjects to choose from where they could use their creative juices than just linger on one subject *Religion*. Freedom-of-speech is very much enjoyed when it is natural & free flowing without any form of control. So always enjoy & express your freedom with some responsibility. For Hindus “M F Hussein’s Painting’s” hasn’t been the first such incident where our sentiments have been hurt. All I can say is we Hindus are more tolerant lot when compared to the other brethren, but it shouldn’t be taken for granted.
This reminds me of one quote from Mahatma Gandhi, “The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.”
Image Source: Wiki | Megha's Blog.
39 comments:
Well said! Sadly tolerance is mistaken for incompetence and ignorance by our Indian junta.......some how that line has disappeared.....pretty sad...
Megha
Yes our tolerance has been mistaken & I feel its time that we raise up and correct certain things.
Hello Vivek,
I read this blog...but my response to that paintings cannot be that civilized as was yours. I remember from Movie SPIDERMAN...With great powers comes responsibilities. Freedom of speech is no doubt a great power ....but in wrong hands..do give such results. I too have been following at least two of these events (Prophet's cartoon and MF Hussain's naked art of making fun of other religion's deity).
To start with Mr. MF Hussain. If he had great respect for women ...and oldman is always in hurry to show that respect....actually paints his fantasies on canvas in name of giving respect/Modern art. If it is so...Why the hell MF(M*** F****) didn't paints his mother naked with Elephant or his dad.
Hey that would be great IDEA...Paint your mother as widely as you want and with all toys and animal of your choice ...and no body is going to say a word abt it.
Now there’s a big difference between two of these event ...Cartoon and painting.
Just observe this....Muslims of gulf are opposing something which happened in WEST ....But Mr. Hussain has done these kind of dirty stuff ..right under our nose in INDIA.... many times . So there is big difference in this two event. When Mr. MF does this in past ...neither GOVT nor media actually held him responsible. and so it became a kind of Hobby for him...and believe me he will do that again.
I think when you believe in some faith. Its our responsiblity/duty to protect that faith also.
I am not Hindu...I am a SIKH. But our religion teaches respect for other religion. At least in INDIA everybody know Ramayana and Mahabharata ...may be from any religion. We all know about the great characters/deities like Ram,sita and other..so certianly its painful to see such painting.
I also feel sorry for the Prophet's cartoon , because there could had been 101 way to deliver cartoonist message ...without involving prophets name or his picture. Religion is not something to play with. Let it be ISLAM, HINDUISM, CHIRSTANITY and others.
Forgot the religion stuff. Just be human...and humanity will prevail.
Regards,
Kuldeep Singh.
yo man,
ha the cartoons. I was wondering something is missing offlate from my attention... I have'nt forgotten about the cartoons, just ruminating and doing some mental churning.
I have an entirely different take on this issue totally consistent with my other ideas.
I am going to blog abt it soon. Thanks for popping it onto my radar.
vasu
nicely siad....but should have been told with more strong words.
I feel that we should strongly oppose this kind of things happening. Some people taking tolerance of others as there advantage.
Comming to Mr. MF Hussain painting, Hussain is been treated as one of the best painters in India. After seeing these painting, I feel he should never be respected as that.
Good people always know to respect others.
M F Hussain should realize that he stays in India.
I read some of the comments from other people for this blog.
Mr.Kuldeep has rightly commented, If he really want to paint ladies naked, why didn't he paint his wife naked.Title:M F Hussain painting with his ... naked.
Really I feel sorry for saying that. I commented this so that people should realize when they don't respect others fellings and emotions how bad others would have felt.
I don't understand some people mentality in India.Yesterday when I was watching the final ODI between India and Pakistan. Some people sitting along with me were supporting pakistan.
I dont really understand is, India is the place they burn and grown up.And this the land which gave them everything. And what did pakistan gave them to support it.Indian is a place where people give respect to every other relegion in country.
I would like to ask them whether there is any other country that will give such a freedom to live
I strongly feel that, people who dont give repect to there country don't respect there mother.
Forgot the religion stuff. Just be human...and humanity will prevail.
Regards,
Ajay
@Kuldeep:Very much agree with your thought "Just be human...and humanity will prevail"
@Vasu:I am eagerly waiting for your next post & I am sure it wld be gr8 one:)
@Ajay: You don't necessarily need strong words for such people, we need strong action against us incidents so that they don't repeat them. BTW this is the second time that M F has depicted Hindu gods in this manner.
As far as supporting pakistan in cricket is concerned, I feel thats the freedom India provides;)
there are two issues here :1)misuse of a power bestowed,2)disrespect towards people's beliefs
MF Husain and the news paper both have something in common... and obsession for anything that will hog the limelight... sensationalize their work.advs: 1) publicity that didnt cost them much,(guess the number of copies that the newpaper sold till now solely relying on the intrigue created) 2)prices that hike,(hussain knows that his pics could cost a few luxurious lakhs more- AND THERE WILL BE PEOPLE FIGHTING TO BUY THEM)
There is a limit to how much freedom of speech can be defended. I hope you people might remember a couple years ago there was a TV prog on a popular music channel that would challenge people to do 'AW-MY-GAAD'-KindOfThings, one of which was to ask two girls to cross or walk the length of a road in their undergarments- How much can that be justified... after all that too was the creative expression of Creative Director of the prog?! Yes, the wild walk lasted hardly 2-3 minutes. but then will these supporters of freedom of expression, protect their cousins who work on prono too? freedom of expression is an amazing power, but what people so conveniently forget is the responsibility that comes with it.
Religion. Personally i consider it some of the best inventions. It has steered man's nature so much so that inspite of being a part of the animal kingdom, he is able to stand apart from the others in it.It is a simple tool to discipline man, which has stood the test of time and speculation of the non-believers and the adulation of the believers.All of them fundamentally teach the same values, yet claim to be different. dont lie, dont steal, dont kill, dont think ill, help, love, respect - all these are teachings that resound in Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Yudaism, Sikhism, Buddism, Jainism, Zorastrianism. Disrespect to any shouldnt be tolerated. The cartoons could have conveied the same message without having to label the bearded figure as prophet Mohammed(p.b.u.h). I am sure they werent stupid enough to think that this wouldnt rake up problems of global magnitude, esp when they are directly hurting the religious sentiments of a community who in the current global scenario are being more that just 'vocal' about their inexplicable hatred towards the rest of the world. The cartoon was trying to convey a message (attention payed to women's issue, how the community is persieved in the west), but what the hell is Hussain trying to convey? Thanx vivek for the 'magnificent' paintings, i hadnt seen them till now. I being a hindu, no controversial news over my religion has ever DEMANDED my immedate attn. I tend to ignore it thinking its some fundamentalists making a ruckus over nothing.
MF Hussain is a man who doesnt wear slippers cos all that dirt his 'divine' feet collect goes straight up to help his empty sick brains in churnin out such disgusting 'expressions of art'. What does Lakshmi have to do with Ganesh for Pete sake?!!!And whats this love with disrobing? Hanuman, as per the legend respected Sita as a sister. The extend this perverted mind can go shows well in the elephant-woman pic. I dont know if any one in their sanity can underastand or admire such a pic .If he does have such sick thoughts then he might as well keep it within his house or get some professional help.
The voice of a community shows its tolerance. Salman had to flee , to stay alive and yet express. Think about what voice does this community have that allows Husain to live, sleep here and yet continue to pursue his next concoction in peace?! Tolerance is a virtue, but the practitioner should know when not to use it. The community has 2 choices - Completely ignore / Make sure your displeasure is know.
Hey Neets!
Gal you could have come with your own post on this one:). The community has 2 choices and I would prefer the latter.
If you think about it our government is the real culprit...if they atleast mentioned it to Husain that his paintings were offensive it would have made a difference....the worst hypocrites in our society is the goverment itself.....
I think, tht one one was really something the indian youth give a thought abt and go against such unrestricted licenses, to artists and all those who r into the "Art Arena"..as said here, "he has used the freedom for his pleasure"... I think there should be an artist who shud be licensed to draw an image of "Hussein trying to locate an ameoba's birth canal, and Ameoba, kicking his ass for medling with its genitals.. i'm sorry for this but... i thought the rage wouldn't subside untill i put it out the way i want it...
Megha, I agree with u that the fact that our government didn't play the required role in this entire issue. As you know most of the political parties in our country have their own goals & agenda.
Forget the politicians they never take a definite stance on any subject, but what happened to the Indian Media, why didn't anyone do anything abt it? Y'day was reading this post from my friend, there are so many News channel and none of them gave any weight to this. The strange part of this issue is, many people aren't even aware of these paintings from this MoFo.
Prajwal, I can't control my laughter @ this one "Hussein trying to locate an ameoba's birth canal, and Ameoba". U hit the anatomy of art by writing that;)
No words all I can say is : Dirty Old man strikes again!! He has hurt the national pride If u ask me. I have no Idea what makes him happy playing with the sentiments of the country which has given him so much respect. I hope some action be taken against him. We have tolerated enough!!!
Neti.
'Dirty Old Man' gets a lot of freedom in this country and he is abusing it, as Neets pointed out that there are many ppl who are willing to buy his art & there has been no opposition from our government.
Initially when I heard about the painting controversy I was like man why cant people mind their own business …its just a painting or a cartoon…and why is there so much noise being made about the same..this was when I had not seen the cartoons of prophet or the paintings of the “GREAT” MF…huh thanks vivek if not for this article I may have never known what this fuss was all about…I totally lost it all when I saw MFs paintings…sheee how could one paint something so obscene about someone’s religion… I think Hindus have always respected other religions…this does not give any rights to an outsider to paint what ever he likes …no one has the right to hurt an other souls sentiments…I cannot take anything against my religion…I pray these people who MF has painted everyday man…I am really hurt today after having seen these paintings…Hope this man realises that he has played with our sentiments
Priya, majority of us have ignored this painting controversy thinking it to be an attack on the old man. Its only after seeeing the cartoons, that triggers you.
If Vasu nor Megha wouldn't have blogged it, then even I wouldn't have known about it or written this post. Sometimes I feel its better off not giving light to such matters, but not this time, this Dirty Old Man has crossed his limits of artistic freedom.
Those paintings were so disgusting!! From the beginning I was against those Danish cartoons!! Religion is too personal.. .. no one has any write to publicly deride or mock these sentiments!! I think it serves the Danes right for now facing terrible losses in their exports!! It serves them right.. hitting them where it hurts !! They sure have gone far!Disgusting that the press are all up in arms in the support!! And the worst of it all is the riots that it has encouraged. So many deaths, so much of violence... was it necessary? You can't blame the people who have rioted.. they are just trying to take a stand against something they feel to be unfair .. While we tend to clasp our hands together, nod our heads in mute agreement and mutter " This is not fair !!" , hoping to be heard while no one would pay any heed to us .. most Hindu protests!! And yeah it's worst that an ass like M.F ( personally i don't even think he paints too well.. !!! ) mints money out of creating vulgar paintings of our gods and goddesses and what does he get ?? "Waah !! Waah !! Waah!! You know M.F ?? The internationally renowned artist ?? Well... he is an Indian ".. while blindfolding ourselves to the content of his obscene art( bah!! Wat an insult to the word)!!! I must however confess guilty to not knowing about those paintings until I read about it in ur blog.. somehow missed this one on Megha's !!!
But why do u have rake up the issue of MF Husain's paintings when the issue was 10 years back. Did he say something to that effect recently? Or it bacause , now that muslims have responded , you feel it is you right too to react. If that is the case then I think it doesnt make much sense.
Deepti, thanks 4 dropping by & 4 your comments. I feel violence is not the right form of protest for such things .
For your Qn "So many deaths, so much of violence... was it necessary?"....
All these incidents really aren't worth taking a life, but you could protest peacefully & still convey the same message.
I feel thats what we(Megha, Vasu & myself) have done, I am not sure whether our posts wld be heard by the common man, but @ the end of the day we don't need numbers, but we need bring awareness among those who r connected to the blogosphre, so all we did was express our thoughts on the subject.
So r u regular on TamilPunkster's postings?
Anon, I am really aware of when the M.F. does his paintings or when it goes to the gallery/autcions and I am least interested in keep tracking of them.
I haven't raked this issue just b'coz of the cartoon controversy. May B I don't make sense to U, but then I don't care much for *Anons*. I feel u r still living in stone-age, it would be great if you keep yourself updated with the news thats happening around the world on various subjects.
BTW I only enabled the Anonymous comments on this blog so that few of my friends who don't have an account on Blogger, can express there thoughts. Next time u drop by & feel like saying something, make sure u leave u'r name @ the end of your comment.
way to go boyo! i loved that serve! anon... sonny,its never too late to talk about anything. do we HAVE to talk about things that are in the news right now? Get real, caveman!
Dear vivek, I thought blogs were about ideas. So what is there in a name? Why attach ur ego in this such affairs.
But u didnt answer my primary question. ur argument is drawing parallels between what has happened 10 years back with those cartoon publications in the paper. U say Hindus shouldnt be taken for granted. Is it that u want hindus to react more violently just cause muslims around the world has done so? I mean i dont understand, man, whats ur point.
I mean seriously, u say i am not aware of current affairs(which ofcourse is true) but is that a prerequsite for discerning ur argument.
Neets, watz happening? Anon has returned the serve MoMo:D
ROTFL "Get real, caveman" really liked the expression:)
Anon,
First, this blog isn't really about ideas, rather its about 'My thoughts, My opinions, My feelings' on various subjects that interests me & ofcourse @ times somethings that concern me directly or indirectly. This controversy is one of those topics which does concern me in some way.
Second, Whatz there in a name?
I wld say nothing, but in the same breath wld say everything. Yes, I am contradicting here, thats true. Even though each of us r very unique in many ways, our society still has given us names to identify us. I am never interested in knowing your name, its the conditioning which socitey has had on me since I was born that has made me ask u'r NAME.
BTW why couldn't we use a numbering system something which so common for commodities?
Anon I just asked u for your name for this, I know everyone has an EGO, but looks like u have more EGO to be lost for u'r own good.
I am gonna save my responses for u'r other arguments for the future, when u bend u'r 'EGO'.
Next time u wanna say anything on my blog, U gonna need a 'Blogger'account, I am once again turning OFF this Anonymous feature for good:)
Anon a.k.a Amrit, good to see u back with an identity.
"U say Hindus shouldnt be taken for granted. Is it that u want hindus to react more violently just cause muslims around the world has done so?"
We have been taken for granted & our tolerance has been tested repeatedly, but, I never meant we should react Violently...where I have conveyed this is in my post? If you have actually followed the comments on this post closely, u wld have never asked me that Qn in the first place. Check my response for Deepthi's comment, that says it all.
I am not sure whether U can judge Megha (anyone) as 'Right Winger' or 'Hypocrite' before knowing her(them) completely. Don't forget it was her post that actually made Vasu & later myself to write up a post on the same subject. This reminds me of one Quote from Georg Christoph Lichtenberg, "Don't judge a man by his opinions, but what his opinions have made of him."
In a democartic nation like ours, why doesn't the Media bother to throw any light on this matter. I feel in a way its good, so that it doesn't become another oppurtunity for these Political parties to use this controversy for their own cause. Also, by ignoring such incidents, it gives artists like M.F. another oppurtunity to repeat the same mistake.
I don't propose any solution, let me first bring the awareness to the subject; there are many friends who don't even know about it & some just ignore it. Who ever has responded to this post have atleast started thinking on this subject and have taken one step in expressing their thoughts. I know many of my own friends who don't feel like expressing their thoughts on this subject and I respect their decisions for that.
I feel, in democracy the most important thing is participation of people. Let us not forget motto of any Democracy - 'By the People, For the People and From the People'. Since I believe in this & we have an elected government @ State & @ Centre, its upto them to make sure such incidents are repeated & some kind of action has to be taken from the system and not made by an Individual.
Also this is the only democratic country in the world where u find even communists governments ruling some of the states, where else can u find this kind of a system?
U r free to tag me to any kind of political ideology, I don't give a DAMN for that.
>>But why do u have rake up the issue >>of MF Husain's paintings when the >>issue was 10 years back......
@Anon - First of all, you are wrong on facts. MF Husein recently drew a nanga picture of Barath matha in an art exhibition. Parsonally, I am not so perturbed by it, but as a pattern of his painting are analysed one will realise that there is a deeper malicious intent and frankly he is proving himself to be "The idiot" of the century. The issue therefore is MF Husein's total disregard for social norms.
>>I hate those right wingers, u know. >>Those are the guys who sit in those >>high perches, and go critical about >>reality in general. Hypocrites.
Anon, I thought your arguments were realyl of a good quality. But like any masquerador you slipped up... I mean slipped up in a major way. You expressed your animosity in one stroke of emotion. I think you got caught up in the ego dialouge and exposed your true colours. Its quiet obvious that your response to this issue has more to do with the fact that Vivek's "lady friend" in your opinion is a right winger. Its quiet obvious that you dont have any opinion on this issue persay. Its ok, not to have opinions. Dont fight your ghosts on other people's blog. What Megha wrote about and what vivek had written about has no rightwing sentiments.
>>What about the solution.
>>Don't tell me this that you are on a >>mission to make people aware of >>atrocities done against hindu gods >>and godesses.(so that next time all >>those ppl who have read this blog >>will be better prepared to react to >>MF). Cause if you are then this is >>the ploy of a communists. They are >>masters in this. I tell u , they can >>create issues from nowhere , without >>having a clue about the subject.
Dude~~~ (Tilde used to communicate utter bewilderment.. can you use exclamation mark for that ? someone please tell me).
I think you are totally confused. Get some clarity as to what you are accusing vivek about ? being a right winger or being a communist ? I dont see any cliches in vivek's argument. He just feels anguished about this whole affair and is blogging about it. To the contrary, your ideas seems to be cliched... and you are reading too much in between lines.
vasu
@Vasu, I have nothing more to say for Anon.
@Ranjit, Dude you feel Freedom expression doesn't give anyone the right to abuse other peoples religion or beliefs. I just happened to read comments on Megha's post on the same subject, there is this guy 'Negative Creep' who contradicts what u r saying, according to him 'I thought those paintings are cool... Esp. the Sita and Hanuman one... and if any of you get offended by that, well, like i care...'. Now what wld u say for that???
He calls himself an Atheist, but I often laugh @ these Atheist b'coz 'If there were no God, there would be no Atheists in the first place'.
ha Vivek...join the club for being labeled a 'fundamentalist'.......as you must have seen in my blog......I got attacked for everything including my blog name!
Some nerve....I feel sorry for these"atheists" who brand everyone supporting their religion a 'fundamentalist' or a 'right winger'.
They do not realise that we are well aware of the pitfalls of our own religion. We do not claim our religion is perfect.....and they dont realise that our issue is not if M.F.Husain was Hindu or Christian or an Atheist. I would also go as far as to day that I would have ignored the pictures if he had not repeatedly painted only Hindu icons in a blasphemous way, he has not painted any other religious icons in any way remotely close to his pictures of the Hindu Godesses.
It is the detestable but miniscule double standards on his part which irks me: NOT his religion or his faith. "Worse, the seemingly unnerving double standards by the Indian government on this issue by ignoring it while they gleefully plan on curbing the basic rights of a normal citizen is the ACTUAL issue which blows me away."( I am quoting from my own comment on my blog here because I felt it articulates our feelings on the issue better, for those folks who cannot see a middle ground between atheists and fundamental right wingers).
and Vivek check out this link by another guy who has chosen to quote me but very predictably has not bothered to let me know:
http://dhoomk2.blogspot.com/2006/02/unease.html
I didnt think it was even worth commenting on his blog, but be sure to check it out.
cheers!
Megha
@Anon:Looks like u haven't gone through my previous comment, here is what I have said and shall repeat myself,"Since I believe in democracy & we have an elected government @ State & @ Centre, its upto them to make sure such incidents aren't repeated & some kind of action has to be taken from the system and not made by an Individual."
As u have clearly mentioned that we are all part of the system & so I expect some kind of responsibile action from the government. Thats all I am looking forward & thats the last word u wld get from my side.
Looks like u don't have anyother point to make apart from tagging every person who comments on my blog as fundamentalist, right-winger, anarchist & stuff. If thats your only intention then u can PUKE the crap on u'r own blog & don't have to come here for that.
>>vasu the terrible ( nice name )
Thanks, meant to be ironic and self deprecating. Thats a whole different philosophy..
>>Buddy it goes like this. So my >>questions were explicit. I ask >>(vivek) what do u propose as a >>remedy for “hindus being taken for >>granted”. Just go through his reply. >>He talks about media , democracy, >>govt of the ppl , by the ppl … I >>don’t know what else. is there any >>coherence in his reply.
Of course there is. Primarily I would agree with your argument, but each person has his own recepie of where the problem lies. You dont (tone of your statement) doensent seem to me like you are seeking information. More irritated than debated. Primary thing is you can disagree with someone but disrespect is what I see. I think there is a lot of sense in what vivek has been talking about. You just have to think. Just wondering what your stance on this is.. are you playing the role of just a questioner or do you have your stance too ? lets talk about that. I am not sure his reply was cliched cos literally everything we speak has already been spoken before (nothing new) and there runs a risk of sounding cliched even though one might feel genuinely about it. But your argument is really cliched and fake. I dont even see in your voice any conviction saying "This is my opinion".
>>u say I slipped. but that is my >>modus operandi, you know . I like to >>slip it in once in a while, real >>smooth. What say you.
:)... Thats a nice one, but you cant fool all the people all the time. I would have bought this argument had the slip up been open intentional and deliberate. True slip ups like yours are generally subtle and out of radar even for the writer. I mean its your real you communicating to the outside world bypassing all the filters of trying to make an argument. That part of you cant be manipulated. I dont see it as an engineered slip up serving a larger purpose of provoking a thought. I dont call this hypocritical, cos I dont attribute it to your intentions. Just that you slipped up. Dont voiceferously defend it, accept it come to terms with it and lets move on. I could have jumped up and said Its hypocritical and that would be cliched. Do you see what I mean in calling it a slip up a silly foolish mistake pardonable than the bigger hypocritical tag ? Thats trying to understand genuinely someone's view point. Anyways nice try. I think it was too smooth to be defended.. :)
>>Dude is a pretty decent word. I >>think you could have chosen better >>expletives if ur intention was to >>show your dismay
Did that offend you. Sorry dint mean to. Was generally displaying my total lack of vacabalary. You see my english is pathetic. Anyways the interesting thing is, you took offense in calling you a dude but not for accusing you being cliched. I think there is some truth to it. You got caught with your hand in the cookie jar and you knew it was spot on. But you did get angry at dont-know-who for being spotted and that was apparent in your anger on being called dude. Dude is a neanderthal word I picked up from some of these younger kids (15-20) year olds.. It was just an infection.
>>Maybe he is. lets say I am pissed >>off with my surrounding, I have all >>the right to puke the crap on the >>web. But if I claim that I am a >>reasonable guy, then I need to >>defend what I say, esp if it is >>generic topic.
See sometimes you use self fullfilling arguments in a very subtle way. By calling i puke or crap you are giving what is actually your judgement of the quality a "factual" tag. Infact the very contention of my argument is "Its a valid argument". Its like you are putting words in other people's mouth. There was once a lawyer who asked the accused "Do you still beat your wife".
Objection!!! is the right response. Just to remind you thats a very old trick and it has been around for dog years.
I have to give it to you that you are intelligent. But you are mistaken in assuming that when people post and respond to issues such as this, it is their intelligence which is at test. It is their honesty which is at test. I think and I am going to stick my neck out and say, you are no doubt intelligent but you are not honest forget about others to yourself. Somewhere you have to believe in your own ideas and then put it out. If you donot do that with a sense of conviction, your ideas dont get across. I think, you are cheating yourself more than anyone else.
Anon, pause a littkle, think what you truly believe and represent yourself honestly. The benifit is you might believe the total opposite of what vivek or megha or me believe in, but you will be respected for that. All these mind games of engineering something wont stick. maybe you believe in a stronger reaction to "the idiot" but this response is not about style or arguments. Its about honesty.
Somehow I dont see honesty in your statements. Wonder why ???
vasu
vivek, the issue is not that anon disagrees with you. I would have loved that and seriously it would have tickled my brain.
But he is just acting a little extra smart in playing words etc. Unfortunately he isnt that good. Atleat not yet...
Damm... this is such a spoiler...
vasu
@Megha, to be frank I don't care for what anyone labels me for, I know what I am @ the bottom of my heart & I know my consciousness is clear. This another perfect example 4 'freedom-of-speech', these guys just go tagging according to their whims and fancies. They don't seem to get the whole reason, why we choose to blog on this issue.
I feel, just because I have mentioned M.F's name in my post, these guys are misinterpreting my post. I have nothing against Muslims in particular or anyone following any religion. As I have stated in my post " I feel artists have lot many subjects to choose from where they could use their creative juices than just linger on one subject *Religion*."
So my whole point behind writing this post was to put across the thought that Artists should leave the Religion alone & shouldn't abuse their freedom-of-speech'.
well what can I say about a guy who refers to u'r post and blogs about it & even fails to let u know about that. I feel u did the right thing by ignoring him.
-Vivek
@Adrenjunky: Well 'Tolerance and Secularism' are two great words & I hope our governments don't show 'Double Standards' regarding them. I feel this is what Megha has been trying to express in her post, but then few ppl missed the whole thing & it took a different path all together.
>>vivek, the issue is not that anon disagrees with you.....
>>But he is just acting a little extra smart in playing words etc.
Vasu, I very much agree with you on that, anon never agrees nor disagrees. It wld have been a different ball game if Anon just puts across his opinions. All he is interested in is taking a dig @ everyone who comments & wants to know what solution I propose to this controversy. He just likes to play with words or better to put in his own words he likes to 'PUKE' on the WEB.
>>Damm... this is such a spoiler...
Yes, it has indeed been a spoiler:)
-Vivek
Thanks for your comment on my name. I think it is a take on a child hood fantasy. The conan series. "Conan the barbarian". Well I wish I was as muscular and as dashing. Atleast I hope to support long locks as Arnold had in that epic series. Anyways, I did mean it as an ironic self-depricating take on myself. Makes me anchored and real.
//I am trying to get the author's intent//
Good enough, but you will more likely get there if you actualyl try to reach it instead of playing word games by provoking. (To the view that it is cliched). Thats why I said, many times what we say might sound cliched because of the frequency with which that argument occured in the past, but the user (of the argument), might genuinely mean what he says. It takes a mature mind to ignore the cliche-numbed brain to muster the courage and relook the argument and see if there is a fresh point. Sorry dude (since you seem to enjoy it), you dint do that the first time around.
// I wont defend it. but I don’t get the big deal. I addressed the lady as a lady. I saw a person having right wing views and said she is a right winger ( she refuses to argue her point, then the holier-than-thou attitude)//
Thats my point. Instead of calling a spade a spade, maybe you can dig around and see if what you seem to call a spade is really a spade. Infact, lets just let that go. You just jumped to a conclusion (that she is a spade) based solely on one post.
// has turned this into something which is fitting ur over all opinion about me. Which is of course seems to be way in the negative. //
Yes it is, plainly based on how quick you made the judgement about which camp someone allgedly belonged. I think you are slipping into camp cliches. Rightwing, left wing , center etc. I also think that people have the right to chose their positions on each and every issue. You calling rightwing prevents you from seeing them anyother way. And considering the position you espoused in the later part of your post, its apparent that your comment on their wing is not just a plain observation but definitely to place them in a position to suit your argument. I am trying to prick that baloon. The opinions on this issue should be judged only within its context.
Coming to your argument. Again my objection is about the word "instigation". To instigate is a premeditated action of malafide intention. If someone just posts an article on how horrible this act was, it doesent instigate. If someone says "lets go hunt that idiot down", then that is instigation. The senal clown did exactly that. Everyone's response to this issue need not be based on someone's extreme position. For e.g. megha was angry in her post. I was just plain amused about how much of an idiot and a hypocrite this guy is. Megha was civil, I was fully loaded with expletives. Its each and every person's style.
Coming to the argument itself.
An average muslim guy is extremely concerned with what is happening in the cartoons. Did you see the world wide protests ? Universal condemnation including liberal muslim countries like malaysia, indonesia etc.
Very true, people want to identify with something and that identity is the need of the times. With democracy and freedom a relatively young phenomena (just 300 years old, compared to millions of years of dictatorship, kingdoms). I think identity is a key part in someone's existential image. Whats wrong with that. This sense of identity is what has created many great things in the world. The sky-scrapers, Jazz blues rap regge, folk. you name it. I think identity is how one human feels connected to his environs.
Why is opinion about saying "hussein's paintings are offensive" partisan ? because he painted hindu pictures in the nude ? no. Its because there is an irreverance displayed in this whole act. To be disrespected and taken for granted irks all of us more than anything else. Artistic license doest cut here. Surely I would have loved to see mohomad's daughter's boobs and cunt as much as I would have loved to see shakthis... And hey how come jesus's dick is not on display as hanuman's or shivas ?. Is it gender discrimination so ingrained in the muslim world ? Its not the nudity persay that irks us, its nudity displayed as a symbol of irreverance, vulgar, and as a sign of debauchery inherant in hindu relegion. I see both kushboos photo in maxim and husseins in the same breath. In total bad taste.
Thats what hussein says when you look at all his paintings. Thats his message. Thats a pretty malicious statement "You hindu gods are all sex obsessed creatures, but look at mohamad's daughter".
Infact what the sena MP from delhi goyal said in a way is being endorsed by hussein himself. He had offered 10 lakh to be paid for whoever who cuts of huseein's hands. Looks to me that hussein wants exactly that kind of response to divide this issue on communal lines and the sena is falling for it. The media is responsible for fuelling this issue by not covering it in good light. Its asif this minority protection is dished out forcibly to everyone.
Well you may how turned honest, you may have even mellowed down, but surely there are two things you arent. atleast not yet. you still are a prisoner of camp cliches and you do have some serious ghosts to exorcise. I am willing to look at your arguments positively, but I need arguments for that which you have given for the first time. Analysing what has happened so far, instead of doing quiet investigation you did a camp-cliched investigationa bout the author's intention. Which invariably put all of us on an opposing position (in your eyes). Hope you end that trip and I am sure willing to look at what you are saying. Infact its quiet possible that I may agree with many of the things that you said and so would kondor and megha. Its also possible that you realise and accept that by putting an article of this nature they (kondor and megha) are neither instigating nor rightwing and its also possible that you might conclude that hussein is a total idiot worthy to be laughed at.
To do that you need to really listen to kondor's statements. He has time and again said, I dont advocate violence. You have to start with that and try to change the way you look at people.
dude (again since you like it), there is nothing personal here ok.
vasu
Vasu, thanks for the response to Anon. I don't feel like responding to him anymore, looks like he has prejudice against all those who have commented on this post & then basically tag them to a particular camp. Apart from that I didn't (or won't) see myself spending time to debate with him.
I have made conscious effort, time & again asking him to go through my post & my comments repeatedly, but Mr Anon isn't interested in that. All he seems to be asking/looking for is 'a soultion' for this episode of M.F.
hmm you're right.. every voice needs to be heard.. and every voice counts!! But fact remains.. that most of the times ( prior to blogging ) we would deride against the atrocities that happen only in our living room.. I don't condone violence either.. but what about marches? banners of protest? Thank god for the media which takes interest in 'vox populi' these days!! But have you noticed one thing? The people in this world who resort to violence are treated with kid gloves and not tread upon while those who maintain stoical silence are not just tread upon but trampled..??? I mean .. even in the case of M.F .. you don't see him deriding Prophet Mohammed do you ? Except for the recent Danish controversy ... we have never seen any outright denigration of the prophet? Yet.. day in ..day out.. you see flagrant misuse of hindu religious symbols and disgusting portrayals of our religious gods!! What answer is there for that ?
And yeah.. lately have been reading tamil punksters blog.. a very S-punky writer she is !! : )
I am posting this message on behalf of my friend Umesh. He says the recent comments exchanged between Anon & the rest remind him of one song from 'Metallica - Eye Of The Beholder'.
Check out the Lyrics:
Do you see what I see?
Truth is an offence
You silence for your confidence
Do you hear what I hear?
Doors are slimming shut
Limit your imagination, keep you where they must
Do you feel what I feel?
Bittering distressed
Who decides what you express?
So you take what I take?
Endurance is the word
Moving back instead of forward seems to be absurd
Doesn't matter what you see
Or into it what you read
You can do it your own way
If it's done how I say
Independence limited
Freedom of choice
Choice is made for you my friend
Freedom of speech
Speech is words that they will bend
Freedom with their exception
Do you fear what I fear?
Living properly
Truths to you are to me
Do you choose what I choose?
More alternatives
Energy derives from both the plus and negative
Do you need what I need?
Boundaries overthrown
Look inside, to each his own
So you trust what I trust?
Me, myself and I
Penetrate the smoke screen, I see through the selfish lie
Doesn't matter what you see
Or into it what you read
You can do it your own way
If it's done how I say
Independence limited
Freedom of choice
Choice is made for you my friend
Freedom of speech
Speech is words that they will bend
Freedom with their exception
Do you know what I know?
Your money and your wealth
You silence just to hear yourself
Do you want what I want?
Desire not a thing
I hunger after independence, lengthen freedom's ring
Doesn't matter what you see
Or into it what you read
You can do it your own way
If it's done how I say
Independence limited
Freedom of choice
Choice is made for you my friend
Freedom of speech
Speech is words that they will bend
Freedom with their exception
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